Saving American red

[tiffin]

Thank you Carol. I had to read your note several times to have it sink in but I get it, lol.

Interesting about the black with "red overtones" because I have a black cow with that. Her sire and dam are both black. There is no registered red or dun for five generations. So, she probably picked up this "wild card" from another "wild card." This cow's bull calf was black with the red overtones which I attributed to the sire being red.

Adrienne

[onthebit]

Nov 26, 2008 11:25:53 GMT -5 cddexter said:

This meant that our dun came from some other cause. No doubt we had it, but we just didn't know why. And that's another story.

regards, Carol D.

My interest is piqued....Lets hear the 'other' story.

[marion]

Yes, but we don't need the dun story posted under 'Saving American Red', or no one will ever find it! ..marion

[cddexter]

Hi Adrienne, if you want to contact me direct with the reg #, I'll see if I can give you some clues. For years, all U.S. owners thought their non-blacks were red, whereas 99% of them were dun. That's why you see so many older registrations with just ted, and then red or dun, or red/dun. A lot of people wanted their animals to be red, and refused to register them as dun, even tho' that's what they were. Once there was a test, the registry became more accurate for that trait. Carol D.

PS. I'll start a new thread with Dun's history (ish), thanks marion c.

[cddexter]

I guess I didn't make it clear enough when I said all Dexters with red from early imports were E+ that I wasn't referring to just Fermoy, and I didn't extrapolate. If I remember correctly, John Potter found that all of the Dexters whose red is from before the recent imports were E+. That's not one cow, Gene, that's a bunch. Or, to put it another way, all little e cows descend from either Lucifer or Platinum. I know with all the info that's gone on here, it's hard to keep track, so I just wanted to straighten out the misconception. regards, Carol.

[liz]

Hi Judy was kind enough to send me the test results for Priapus and unfortunately he tested as 'Ed/Ed not capable of producing red offspring'. Oh well it was nice to hope for a bit I did want to post it though just in case anyone was thinking of using him for another line of red. Liz

[onthebit]

If she is that valuable, why wouldn't the association flush her? I wish I could think of something to do....

[onthebit]

WOW I am surprised nothing has been said either way! That she is the last wild red we know of is almost assured..so why don't all our associations put together the money to save this genetic potential? Seems so d**n simple to me! Of course we would have to get along long enough to do it. Might be something to look forward to in the New Year eh?
Char

[liz]

Ok Gene, what the heck is 'American' red in a Dexter? As far as red without Lucifer or Outlaw, if that is your preference, then we know in Canada that at least one Woodmagic import carried red, which was why Priapus was an interesting possibility, but you know really they are all, yours and mine, imports. And wasn't there somewhere in this post that you were questioning Ms Fermoy's own 'dexterness'? Is that now resolved to your satisfaction? Liz

[liz]

Gene thanks for the history lesson but I think you will find that the first Dexters, selected as 'dexters' in Britain were 'selected' by British (English) royalty, not by Irish peasants. Most likely the Irish selected on practicality, milkiness, easy keeping .... things that they would have needed, not cuteness. You might be surprised to note that there are many theories as to the origin of the chondrodysplasia gene in our breed; I seem to remember on the UK board, Beryle Rutherford, Woodmagic herd, theorizing that it came with the introduction of another breed .... Devon if I remember correctly. The 'appendix' was mainly a way to try and deal with the problem of bulldog calves, not to increase milk or size or whatever. Beryl line bred the 'problem' away and others tried to 'out breed' it. As a matter of fact if you read Beryl's book on her Woodmagic herd there is an appendix (different kind:)) in the back of the book with milk records of Dexter cows of the time, of different herds, some of which you would consider to be 'fullblooded'. Their milkiness is quite impressive and one can only assume that to a large degree we have bred it out of the breed as it is now. Whatever critical points that are disagreed with by previous Brit breeders, out crossing or not, liking carriers or not, they were trying to breed a cow that was functional and the cow, carrier or not, won ribbons based on classification not on 'history'.
You 'rage' on about how the English Appendix changed the face of the Dexter yet I would propose to you that even the infamous 'introgressions' were done with an eye to keeping Dexter qualities, at least by all accounts and however misguided you might think it. We breeders argue and hold all sorts of opinions about what these Dexter qualities are, yet mainly we talk about stature and not give much to the true dual purposefulness, milk and beef, of the breed. It could be argued that in doing so we breed as much away from Dexterness as the infamous Appendix breeders. Anyway back to Ms. Fermoy and 'American' red; I put to you that to call something 'American red' in Dexters is an oxymoron. I think you mean 'fullblood red' which would encompass the world really, point in fact you were originally going to use a Canadian fullblood dexter bull, Priapus, to save the American red. Secondly Ms Fermoy is a beautiful cow, in my opinion, and looks to be the perfect Dexter, yet you have questioned her authenticity and until you quell the questions that were raised, she's hardly the poster child you are holding her up to be. L

[liz]

Gene polledness wasn't 'done' with an introgression and an appendix cow but with a 'mutation'; believe it or not ! With all due respect; this isn't a private conversation but one that is argued on every board. Usually I stay out of this, I have a breeding program, nice cows and don't care what people have to say about my bulls. I picked them for their qualities not for approbation. This does need to be discussed Gene because statements are made that are not quite true. Sure the Romans, or Latin named Bos Taurus, but actually cows had been around since the caveman. Whether you agree or disagree with the appropriateness of the appendix registry it was started because breeders had a problem with bulldog calves and thought that outcrossing would save them from the problem, they had no science for the chondrodysplasia gene at the time. So her we are; you blaming this on 'changing Dexters as we know them' and me saying that they were looking for the answer to a problem, bull dog calves, if Beryl's book is to be believed, and at the same time trying to keep qualities they knew to be Dexter. She actually recounts that consideration of the Spanish 'Toro' was given at one point, because the size matched so well. Now wouldn't that evil thing have made Lucifer look sweet!

[cddexter]

whoa, guys, just a couple of points.
Gene: (1) you keep ignoring Sandi's reds that originally came through Mar Nells Black Lady. She's well before any of the imports you don't like. How come you consistently refuse to include her offspring; (2) it is unlikely there will ever be proof of red from Myers Farm animals, so it is unlikely there will ever be proof that Fermoy is or isn't a 'pure' Dexter or where her red came from and I think it is this selective blindness that some object to; (3) ya know, this whole fight is like car parts. Ford makes a car, and uses the same parts over and over for years, because they still fit. Good economic sense. I think you are saying that if you don't have the original part that was one of the ones made at the time to go with the 1923 roadster, then it's not an original part. Liz is saying since the same parts were used for years and are identical, and come from the very same mold, it doesn't matter if ithe part was made in 1940, IT'S THE SAME EFFING PART! Get over it. (4) there were small black cattle with white spotting on the Br. Isles long before the Romans turned up with their WHITE cattle, and you've forgotten the RED cattle that came in with the Celts, also prior to the Romans; (5) dun was not a recognized Dexter color until the '60s, far later than you are attributing it to.

Also, PLEASE PLEASE would you all remember that in the beginning, pretty well all Dexters were something else with a dwarf gene thrown in. It's THAT reason that you see pics of old Dexters with huge udders or lots of beef. It is NOT that these qualities have been bred out, or 'lost'. You can get the 'old look' you are bemoaning the loss of, in one generation. Take any other breed and put a chondro gene into it, and you'll see the same animals you saw in 1900. Gene's right about one major point. There are a lot of people who, now that chondro is a public topic and not stuck in the closet as it used to be, have chosen to breed away from it. That certainly has changed the breed, no doubt about it.

Dexters and dexter owners will always be stuck on the horns of a dilemma: no lethal genetic defect, not a real Dexter. If you want to be pedantic, half the Dexters born are 'true' Dexters, the other half are either not Dexters at all, or dead. Let's face it, we're just chicken fanciers, saving three chicks out of 27 hatched because that's the only ones that match the look we like. Some breed!

Liz: the Experimental registry is the one you are thinking of, started (they thought) to eliminate the bulldog gene. The Appendix registry was around ever since the herd book was closed in 1923, because owners were interested in the Dexter qualities and there weren't enough Dexters to go around, and they were still trying to 'improve' the QUALITY of animals. The idea of 'purity' having status for its own sake is a modern one.

May this be the year of the heifer. (God knows I've had nothing but bulls for three years; I'm due.) regards, carol.

[liz]

Thanks Carol for that bit of info. I remember BR talking about the outbreeding in order to try and stop the bulldog crisis that was happening and thought that was the 'appendix registry'. I would have checked the reference, but I lent my book to a friend I am pretty clear on the Spanish bull bit though! Happy New Year, L
ps I don't know if 2009 will be the year of the heifer but I think that the 'breeding year' is off to a good start. I have had nothing but bulls with my AI'ing efforts the past 8 years, but the first to calve this season had a little Galaxy daughter! Smallest ever born here but boy can she eat! 'heifer dance .... '

[robert5721]

Carol,
Congrads on a GREAT post here..I have but 7 hours, 12 minutes and 38 seconds left as a director, and will admit that most of what I have heard you say over the years is dead on in my book. May the heifer bug bite you firmly on the target, and may you have a GREAT NEW YEAR !!
Robert Seddon
Olde Towne Farm
Mineral, Va

Dec 31, 2008 13:06:28 GMT -5 cddexter said:

whoa, guys, just a couple of points.
Gene: (1) you keep ignoring Sandi's reds that originally came through Mar Nells Black Lady. She's well before any of the imports you don't like. How come you consistently refuse to include her offspring; (2) it is unlikely there will ever be proof of red from Myers Farm animals, so it is unlikely there will ever be proof that Fermoy is or isn't a 'pure' Dexter or where her red came from and I think it is this selective blindness that some object to; (3) ya know, this whole fight is like car parts. Ford makes a car, and uses the same parts over and over for years, because they still fit. Good economic sense. I think you are saying that if you don't have the original part that was one of the ones made at the time to go with the 1923 roadster, then it's not an original part. Liz is saying since the same parts were used for years and are identical, and come from the very same mold, it doesn't matter if ithe part was made in 1940, IT'S THE SAME EFFING PART! Get over it. (4) there were small black cattle with white spotting on the Br. Isles long before the Romans turned up with their WHITE cattle, and you've forgotten the RED cattle that came in with the Celts, also prior to the Romans; (5) dun was not a recognized Dexter color until the '60s, far later than you are attributing it to.

Also, PLEASE PLEASE would you all remember that in the beginning, pretty well all Dexters were something else with a dwarf gene thrown in. It's THAT reason that you see pics of old Dexters with huge udders or lots of beef. It is NOT that these qualities have been bred out, or 'lost'. You can get the 'old look' you are bemoaning the loss of, in one generation. Take any other breed and put a chondro gene into it, and you'll see the same animals you saw in 1900. Gene's right about one major point. There are a lot of people who, now that chondro is a public topic and not stuck in the closet as it used to be, have chosen to breed away from it. That certainly has changed the breed, no doubt about it.

Dexters and dexter owners will always be stuck on the horns of a dilemma: no lethal genetic defect, not a real Dexter. If you want to be pedantic, half the Dexters born are 'true' Dexters, the other half are either not Dexters at all, or dead. Let's face it, we're just chicken fanciers, saving three chicks out of 27 hatched because that's the only ones that match the look we like. Some breed!

Liz: the Experimental registry is the one you are thinking of, started (they thought) to eliminate the bulldog gene. The Appendix registry was around ever since the herd book was closed in 1923, because owners were interested in the Dexter qualities and there weren't enough Dexters to go around, and they were still trying to 'improve' the QUALITY of animals. The idea of 'purity' having status for its own sake is a modern one.

May this be the year of the heifer. (God knows I've had nothing but bulls for three years; I'm due.) regards, carol.