Carol Davidson << That's the first rule. In the past several weeks, I 've seen Fermoy go from homo e to homo E+<<
That is inaccurate. I've not seen that anywhere. Perhaps you could post the *exact* quotes. I won't let you get away with deceit.
For those who are not aware, the registered name of Ms. Fermoy is Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy. She is red. She is the only red Dexter in America that does not have Parndon Bullfinch or any of the modern imported bulls in her pedigree. She is a full blood Dexter by pedigree. I was told by one of her owners/breeders. Dr. Hall of the Magnetic Harmony herd that he was told by John Potter that Ms. Fermoy was the ONLY "true red" cow in America. I mentioned this eons ago in a discussion on the old Dakodan board. Only one person challenged the assertion at the time, and that was another breeder who also has a "true red" cow. I don't know if that animal was born after the time Dr. Hall was given that information or not. For those of you who care. . . you could ask John Potter for Ms. Fermoy's information. He has it.
Carol Davidson >>the proof that Priapus and Jamie carry red go from a formal form to an informal letter, from the lab to Sheila to Ron to others. How can you believe anything that's said?<<<
They can believe anything *I* say because I put great value on the truth. I never play loose with the truth. Never.
Your comment is more deceit. You know nothing of the situation. You were not involved. You were given nothing from me. If you want to know the facts you should do better research. Like. . . ask the source. Or see it from the source below.
<< 'American red' if you want to call it that, is actually E+<<<
Not accurate. Mrs. Fermoy has the oldest and purest genetics of them all and she is "true red".
Carol Davidson <<<As far as I know, the only little e's in North America so far have been through the introduction of Lucifer and Platinum, both bulls that have been attacked and picked on and discredited by a small group, but at the same time the same group says their redness is the only right one and it has to be saved because it's the real true american red...oh no, I mean the other red? Gimme a break.<<
I believe this to be in error based on the information given to me by Dr. Hall, and the assertion by another breeder that he has at least one animal that has tested e/e. ( That was about three years ago). Are you sure you have the information regarding Lucifer correct? I was told he is E+. Platinum could be anything he has such a hodgepodge of genetics.
Carol Davidson <<there was a red in Florida that had no English influence and Sandi Thomas has a bunch and we know her red didn't come from Bullfinch.<<
You can bet on that one and my reference has nothing to do with the fact that Parndon Bullfinch is ED/ED, ( which happened to be reported correctly on the Canadian report form I received; wonder why out of six animals the information on only two is purported to be inaccurate? )
Carol Davidson << That makes Fermoy one of several, not the only one. <<
Actually, that may not be accurate either. The rapid advancement of DNA testing and the availability of historical samples in some instances will offer substantiation where only rumors existed previously. Stay tuned.
Carol Davidson <<I didn't check any American reds per se, but a number of reds in the US have been tested, and some of those are not related to any recent English imports, making them orginal genetics, and my information is they are all E+. I could well be misinformed, so if you have hard fact info to the contrary, let me know.<<
Again, your information is inaccurate. Mrs. Fermoy is the only full blood ( by pedigree) Dexter in America, that predates Parndon Bullfinch. Every other red Dexter in America has Bullfinch, Lucifer, Platinum, Outlaw, or Prince. Parndon Bullfinch is the only other Dexter who shows no upgrading in his pedigree.
Carol Davidson: If you want evidence, try calling a source. Ron Black will have original information direct from Sheila. Therefore his word is based on her official report and should be good. You have one person who thinks she got the info from Ron but can't find anything now, and you have another breeder who called Ron just recently and was told no red. Which one do you choose to believe?>>
Hmm. Actually, that IS just what I did. A letter was sent to Dr. Sheila Schmutz by the owner of a Parndon Bullfinch sample who provided it for testing asking that the results be sent to me. This was part of the information and research gathering process to clear the rumors and assumptions regarding the parentage of Parndon Bullfinch . When the results were not received, I personally contacted Dr. Sheila Schmutz inquiring as to those results. Sometime after that I received, in the mail from Canada, a copy of the original letter with a handwritten note from Dr. Schmutz to Ron Black regarding the release of the results, and attached to it by staple, a form with the results. ( If anyone wishes a copy they need only ask me and I will send by email. . . I cannot get it to copy to the forum).
The form provided the following information on six animals: Date of the test, ( 2002), the lab number for the sample, the dun test results, the red test results, the name of the animal and the person who submitted the sample. There is NO doubt it came from official sources. The only doubt is how it came to have errors, if in fact, it is in error.
Carol Davidson <<Further, there is no such thing as American Red. This is a name you (plural) have come up with to make it sound special. E+ is E+, whether it came here in 1905 or 1997, it 's still the same gene. And, that color gene is found all over the world, not just in 'America'. <<
Unless I am mistaken, there is a member of ADCA leadership who coined that term about 20 years ago. I am confident you have heard the term before as the assertion has in the past been "controversial" some I was told. As recently as this summer at a Dexter show and sale, another member of ADCA leadership advertised a sale animal as having "unique" America red genetics. Why is Gene under attack for referring to Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy, a FULL BLOOD Dexter as "American Red"? Her genetics predate any importations in these other red animals!
Carol Davidson <<<I knew Charles Pacheco well, and bought his entire herd when he was selling out because it was mostly my genetics and I'd just moved to a new much bigger farm with room for more animals. Most people don't know (and some would prefer to forget) that Charles ran several bulls all in the same field, not all Dexter, was doing crossbreeding, and didn't register anything for about five years, so by the time he did register he couldn't remember who was who. When I saw the list of what I was buying, I was really excited because two of the cows were 100% my breeding from animals I'd sold him several years earlier and bought back, but when they arrived, they were both dwarf registered as from two nons, and the birth date on one was the same as the year he told me (at the time) the cow had had a bull calf. As well, because he hadn't kept his vaccinations up to date, he had his vet vaccinate the entire herd for Bangs, even animals too old. When they were being tested to cross the border, this caused the USDA vets to have a heart attack because a bunch of the cattle came up positive for the disease, and WA is a dairy state, and they thought they had an outbreak. Even though we could prove the animals had been just vaccinated, the governments weren't about to take a chance, and instead of getting about 25 head, I got about 15, and the other 10--one of whom was Fermoy--were not supposed to leave the state. <<<<<<
From the first moment a Canadian breeder sent me an email questioning the validity of the bloodlines of Ms. Fermoy I began to research her. I have questioned persons across this country about Ms. Fermoy, including John Potter, who I was told "knew" the truth about Ms. Fermoy. I spoke to Fred Chesterley on three occasions, I spoke to Dr. Hall, I spoke to Clark Mizell. I spent hours on the telephone trying to locate the breeder Charles E. Pacheco, from Washington State to surrounding states to retirement states without success. I located a breeder who purchased a full sister ( by pedigree) of Ms. Fermoy in the state of Idaho only to discover she had been sold to someone who didn't transfer the registration. I managed to locate that individual and the cow was by then dead and buried on his farm. I elicited a promise from him that if I needed it, he would dig up a bone for me for DNA testing. I go to extraordinary lengths to gather as much information as I can when I am researching issues. I leave no stone unturned if I can think of a stone to turn over. I report on information I gather with source material and documentation. I am a seeker of truth. Period.
I did NOT discover the controversy surrounding Ms. Fermoy until I owned her. If so, I wouldn't own her. I would never knowingly purchase animals *I* knew to have questionable breeding as*I* would never harm or dishonor the Dexter breed by knowingly infiltrating the breed with animals *I* believed to have questionable parentage.
I read the information on the Wee Gaelic herd printed in a previous post and quoted above and I am aghast that an entire herd was purchased with previous knowledge of sloppy breeding habits and questionable parentage from bulls on the farm of breeds other than Dexter, and one of the bulls from that herd was collected for sales of AI semen by the new owner.
Here is an update on the Aldebaran Priapus issue. A straw of semen is being purchased and sent to the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory at UC-Davis. ( Priapus is already in the Dexter DNA database there and his parentage IS confirmed, but there was not enough sample left from original testing to perform the MC1R test for red). As soon as the test results are available they will be posted here. In the near future the same will be done with Jamie O'Callen.
Judy Sponaugle
