Saving American red

[Cloverbell]

I agree 100% with you Jim and the fact that anyone posts a question or a newcomer says howdy and it gets looked at 45 times without a response is shameful.

And, as for the increase in traffic since all this started...as my neighbor says, "The only thing boys like more than fighting is watching girls fight."

[liz]

Yes he said that to me too but I do know that Judy is having Priapus retested. It's really fun to think that maybe....perhaps... You know Priapus is an older Canadian bull and a lot of us (in Canada) take him a bit for-granted, but one thing this thread has done for me is to remind me of his other really good qualities for use in AI. If it works out with Ms Fermoy and if you end up flushing her, lots of if's!, Priapus may be a great bull to use on her anyway. Up here Priapus is pretty much known to make carbon copies of the cows he is used on. I haven't seen any Priapus daughters but I do know that my experience with seeing Cluny's, his sire, daughters is pretty much that. As you said Gene any offspring would carry her red gene anyway. I do hope it all works out because she is a nice looking cow. Let us know what John Potter says please Gene.

[wstevenl]

With all this talk of early blood lines, Aldebaran Priapus, etc. I took a look at some of my cows again and saw that Priapus is the grand sire of a 12 year old cow that I recently bought. Can someone take a look at her pedigree and tell me if she's considered a "legacy" cow? I believe that she is. She's due to calf any day. Her name is Toby's P-Bar Lucky Leah. We also have two of her daughters, Thelma May and Black Lady that seem to me to be "legacy" cows. 2 of them are bred to a bull that I think is legacy and they will all be bred back to my bull that is of newer bloodlines.
As the 12 year old gets closer to calving I can't believe how big her udder is getting, she really looks like she could be in a dairy herd. She is after all at least 50% Woodmagic.

I think all this genetic stuff is interesting too, but we should remember that the very first Dexters were just a mix of local breeds. If someone in the 60's mixed in another breed out of ignorance then that's just too bad. If someone things they have pure cows and they want to keep that line going then thats good for them!

[cddexter]

Gene, I don't know if you'd take advice from me, but keeping in mind that for years most Dexter owners were completely ignorant of most things livestock, and a frequently heard comment was oh you can leave bulls together, it's always the senior bull that does the breeding, I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of Dexter paper pedigrees that don't match what's on the ground. Add to that the number of people who did run several breeds together, and the bottom line is don't bank on every paper pedigree being accurate. Most do their best within their level of knowledge, and the good news is things are definitely getting better as more information is available to more people.

This doesn't make Dexters mutts or not worth having. It makes them just like all the other breeds of cattle, and in fact like all the other registered breeds regardless of species. Nothing is ever perfect.

Why not simply use Fermoy as though she is as papered, and appreciate her for being a good quality Dexter, in her own right. I fully understand the desire to isolate and preserve original genetics, but don't take it to such an extreme that you leave your self at a standstill.

I kind of liken this whole issue to painting a room: you buy a particular color, put it on the wall, and then save the rest of the can for a rainy day. Later on you want to go back and touch up a few spots. You can use the rest of the old can, but you can also go back to the paint store and get another can of exactly the same color. You won't see a difference on the wall, and you can't tell the difference if you do a chemical analysis, because the pigments will still be the same. Genes are like pigment. The only real difference is in your mind.

Please use and enjoy Fermoy, breed her to the best you can find, and be grateful for the quality offspring she gives you, whatever they are. If she's not 'pure', she's still a great old cow. If she is, well that's nice too.

With the best of intentions, Carol.

[jamshundred]

Carol Davidson: Judy I don't think these forums are the right place to air differences. No matter how one tries, it always ends up in a pissing contest.<<

If that is really your position. . . then why did you come on this board. . . and make a post which used *my* name ( which was edited by Olga) and make sarcastic insinuations which gave the appearance that I was being deceitful on the issues that were being discussed? My participation here was to offer information I had in file regarding questions to Gene about information I gave him. The end. Nada. Read the thread folks

Carol, I want breeders to be factually informed on issues. I want the original HORNED Dexter breed protected. That's been my singular role. Personally, I love a good mystery, and a jigsaw puzzle on the table. . so my favorite hobby is research and digging into old files and photos and gathering historical data, so it is only natural that I apply those interests to my love of Dexters. I have never harmed an individual soul in this breed for the sake of doing so. If lies protect and truth harms. . . I still leave it to people to decide which one is the most important in their standards.

<< I 'd like to show how important it is to be accurate, and to NOT use information out of context.
Another long time breeder did coin the term 'true red' about 20 years ago, BUT SHE WAS REFERRING TO THE ANIMALS BEING GENETICALLY RED as opposed to being genetically dun but registered as red, which was a common thing in those days (in fact pretty well every 'red' Dexter registered until around 1980 was actually dun). It's actually inaccurate to point to Sandi's use of 'true red' as support for your current use of the term because they are two totally different uses.<<

Carol, I will give you the benefit of your coming from one place on this and me another. Sandi Thomas DID tell me eons ago that at one time she had the ONLY true American red cows. In the context of the conversation, and from comments of others. . . I understood her comments to mean that she had red cows of American descent BEFORE she began breeding red with an imported sire. That was the context as I understood it. That is also the context it is being used in today. . . and more power to those who are breeding for American red. The American Dexter breed needs to PROTECT and PRESERVE their unique status in the world of Dexters. The rest of the world doesn't want what they already have.. . . they want unique and different. . .and until the past two decades WE had it in America and in great numbers. Then we went and purchased "different" from the rest of the world and proceeded to wipe out what we have they don't. Talk about lack of foresight!

Carol D. <<Thanks for taking the time to respond<<<

Are you being nice? Is this an olive branch? I'll hold you to it if it is, and offer the same in return.

Adrienna: So, this whole saga has come down to a whole lot of Dexters out there including mine of questionable heritage. Oh well, I love my Dexters anyway and will continue to raise and enjoy them whatever color, size, heritage they are. I don't think there is any going back to the original from Ireland because of poor record and animal keeping.<<<

Adrienna, there ARE a lot of Dexters with recorded upgrading in their pedigrees. Like you, many Dexter owners do not mind this at all. Two of my favorite Dexters have upgraded bloodlines. However, I do not understand why breeders and leadership are not concerned with preserving and protecting the unique and rare FULL BLOOD Dexters we have in America? Other countries do and are and care. Why not the US? I have in my herd everything but polled and admit that polled bloodlines ARE an issue for me because I am concerned for the damage to the original breed. More on this below. Adrienna, you will NOT find a single person who will tell you that *I* have ever advocated by voice or print the destruction of a single Dexter or an act of any type that harms the interests of any breeder. However, I am human, and if every owner of a polled animal raised them and fattened them and then ate them with joy. . I'd be joyful too!

Carol D: << and the Cardiff DNA project has shown there is virtually no difference genetically between 'original population' English Dexters from 1900 and 'modern' Dexters in 2008....well, we all have 'pure' Dexters. Everything else is just slant and hype.<<

Carol, this is not published fact. The Cardiff project has NOT published, and they have only given out the barest of information on the project awaiting the time they publish as is the practice of scientists. Don't you think it best to respect those who have invested much time, effort, and expense in this research project? There has been no public release of information on this project since the 2007 DCS AGM, partly because false information was placed in the public venue. They have made it clear they do not want information on this project floating around on the internet since most of it isn't accurate or in context. Those in the US who have any involvement with the project have respected those wishes.

Judy

[jamshundred]

Jim Wooten: << the rest of us that their Dexters are better than our Dexters because of blah, blah, blah. This is the same stuff that split the breeders into 2 associations making them both less than what they would be if their was only 1. If these people really cared about Dexters you would see them spreading some of their vast wisdom around when a novice asks how much hay does it take to feed a Dexter in the winter. But no what you see is a post with 45 views and no replies. I say again " You people are not doing the breed any good arguing this in this venue" Now if you want to attack me thats fine I've got very wide sholders. But you are only hurting the Breed.<<<<<<

Mr. Wooten, I would like to respectfully disagree with your opinion and address a couple of your points.

First, and foremost I believe in truth and honesty. The opposite of that is lies/ deception. Why would you want information about the breed not to be accurate or discussed? As to helping others; I do what I can and when I can and I do not do it publicly. Many people have received private emails from me offering my experience in relation to their questions. I mention this only because allowing you to suggest otherwise would be a confirmation that your statement is accurate when it is not.

Now to what *I* think is really harming the breed.

Let's start with opportunists who breed the latest fad . . . make their big bucks and walk away. They inflate prices to where the average person who wants a beef or milk cow cannot afford a Dexter and they go buy grade animals or another cheaper breed. Breeders want to sell ALL their animals both bulls and cows at the price of breeding stock and there has been little, if any, leadership on this issue. Some of the bulls I see, even in shows, give me heartburn. Compare some of those bulls you see with the historical photos on my website, and tell me the breed hasn't been changed. .. .and drastically. Mr. Wooten. .. can you explain the large percentage of buyers who jump into this breed and jump back out? Do you have any idea the number of animals that are missing from the Dexter rolls because they have been sent to sale barns because buyers have bought hype and not reality? I am a researcher and I call many people listed as owners. I DO have an idea of the numbers. Tell the people the truth. That does NOT harm the breed. . . it helps it!

Next comes lack of standards: Dexter were the "smallest" original European breed of cattle and they were HORNED. Today, at a time when the cattle market is downsizing and returning to forage based production, the smallest original breed of cattle is getting BIGGER and BIGGER. Does this make sense to you? . . . . . Add to that the polled animals who DO have a hodgepodge of genetics, ( think of Saltaire Platinum with Angus on the fourth line of his pedigree and three other recorded upgrades, and a phoney mutation - and ask yourself. . . IF. . . Ms. Fermoy, the dam, granddam, gr-gr grandam and on and on of almost ALL polled cattle in America is half Tarentaise. . . .what does that say about polled animals in the Dexter breed? How dare they call them Dexters is what *I* say. - - - - - - - - Forget those upgraded genetics and move on then to the polled itself. Homozageous polled is DOMINANT. It takes horns off Dexters. Dexters are a horned breed. That of itself is changing a breed forever. Forever. Is that what you "lovers" of the Dexter breed want? If so, it isn't Dexter you want. Think on that for a minute or two. How do you figure by trying to protect and preserve original bloodlines from these *imposter* bloodlines those of us who care are "harming the breed?".

Next issue: Dexters have no breed standard and are a hodgepodge of characteristics and now they are toying with decorator colors which will create a fad and financial gain for some in the short term but will add to the nail in the casket of this breed. Do you think the Angus breed will EVER permit a cow with white markings all over it? The Dexter breed has no credibility in the market place. Read the mainstream cattle boards. No breed standard. No standards at all are maintained in this breed and no intregrity or validity of pedigree.

Next issue: Polled Dexters and larger Dexters.
Go to a Lowline Angus website. Read their breed description and selling points. Line for line and word for word it not only mirrors the characteristics that have sold Dexters for decades, it EXCEEDS the good qualities found in Dexters, . . . . . . . and. . . . . they are called ANGUS which of itself adds financial gain for a breeder. They also have stringent breed standards. ( Read their height requirements and compare it to the bulk of Dexters now walking pastures and Dexters are "supposed" to be the smallest breed. Polled Dexters will not now nor in the future likely compete with Lowline Angus. I suspect, when the prices of Lowline Angus decrease to the point where they are affordable and profitable the opportunists in the Dexter breed who have shoved polled down our throats will leave in droves to where the "real" money is. And what will they leave behind? The ashes of horned Dexters wiped out by imposter animals with a hodgepodge of genetics that should be called, "grade" or percentage animals.

I very simply have to agree to disagree with you about who is harming this breed.

Judy Sponaugle

[jamshundred]

<<<With all this talk of early blood lines, Aldebaran Priapus, etc. I took a look at some of my cows again and saw that Priapus is the grand sire of a 12 year old cow that I recently bought. Can someone take a look at her pedigree and tell me if she's considered a "legacy" cow? I believe that she is. She's due to calf any day. Her name is Toby's P-Bar Lucky Leah. We also have two of her daughters, Thelma May and Black Lady that seem to me to be "legacy" cows. 2 of them are bred to a bull that I think is legacy and they will all be bred back to my bull that is of newer bloodlines. <<

Hello,

Yes indeed! You definitely have a full blood Dexter in your herd.
Lucky Leah indeed! Legacy began as a project to preserve the oldest bloodlines in America which were considered to be "full blood" Dexters. It has evolved to try and preserve ALL the full bloods in America because full blood Dexters are not only rare here in America they are rare in the world. Does anyone know of any other breed that doesn't identify and try to preserve their full blood animals? Why wouldn't they? Why don't we?

The bull you are using is NOT a full blood thus not Legacy qualified. There IS semen available if you would be willing to breed her to preserve those bloodlines and propagate them. The choices are: Trillium Cluny, Fairy Hill Peter, Anton of Mt. Carmel,
Rafter D Finn Bennach. There is quite a bit of FHP very small amounts available of the other. We are getting a few more bulls into the mix and I know there is one in Missouri I am told is turning out very nicely, maybe a couple for sale in Texas, and I have a couple with long legs that I am watching mature. These long legs get so tall!

Lady has Parndon Bullfinch in her pedigree and they are not at the moment considered Legacy, but the research is ongoing.

I need the herd name or registration number of Thelma to look her up for you. Send me an email and I will do so.

Your herd has very nice bloodlines from a lot of past and present Dexter breeders. If I can help or encourage you to maintain the bloodline on Leah, just let me know.

Judy

[onthebit]

A couple questions: If Ms fermoy's is the only cow in the world who carries 'American Red' then why not have her cloned?

Is being American Red the only outstanding quality she has? Seems to me that being a red cow is pretty common! My cows are not red and I have a couple who are outstanding examples of the Dexter breed. And they are long legged but not tall. Also have a bull who at 2.5 yrs old is 39inches at the hip and he is longlegged too.... They are Canadian Black and Canadian Dunn (hehe)

Are there cattle in other countries who don't carry the questionable imported bloods?

[jamshundred]

Hi "onthebit",

<<<A couple questions: If Ms fermoy's is the only cow in the world who carries 'American Red' then why not have her cloned?<<

Lauging! I could probably buy every living Dexter in America for that price! I am not sure cloned animals are turning out so well.
I know a man here in Maryland who had a cloned holstein and goodness. . . he went through so many hassles and was on the verge of losing everything. . if in fact he didn't. I think I have herd that there seems to be longevity as well as health issues in clones too.

Even doing a flush for embryos is expensive. And then the cost of having recipient cows and having the expense of implanting the embryos.

Ms. Fermoy is a really nice cow. I must admit that every person, to a person, who has met her in person doubts her to be a purebred Dexter, much less a full blood. There is just something about all her features put together. She is a nice cow, and because her pedigree says she is what she is and DNA has yet to advance far enough to confirm or deny, we proceed considering that paperwork to be factual. What other recourse? DNA will advance and in the near future the answers will be available. . .

<<Is being American Red the only outstanding quality she has? << No. She has a delightful quiet and gentle countenance. ( One of the characteristics ( gasp) that I read in the description of Tarentaise cattle), and she is a well conformed cow. There is a photo of her in this thread I believe.

One thing I don't think has been discussed here. Ms. Fermoy is a carrier of brindle. She has had one brindle calf for sure because it was born on my farm. He looked like a red tiger he had so much black brindling.

<<Seems to me that being a red cow is pretty common! <<
More so than in the past. Red became a desirable fad because it was "different" in the 90's, and when breeding red you have an absolute not found in other Dexter colors: red bred to red throws red. Most of the red in the Dexter breed today comes from imported animals from England that had upgrading. . . usually there was Jersey in there somewhere because the English milked and had Dexter dairies and used Jersey's for upgrading.

I have a personal *opinion* on red Dexters based on tons of research through English and American pedigrees. I think we lost the red in the American herd somewhere in the 60's and 70's. Red is recessive and seems to be more fragile than dun as to being lost to black ( in my opinion). Ms. Rutherford the Woodmagic herd owner in England at one time had red, but lost it entirely and she maintained a closed herd. Another breeder here in America had a closed herd with red at one time than lost it also. I know in one instance where red is present there is a confirmed pedigree error and ( my opinion based on data) is that it came in on Jersey. In another instance, I have gone through pedigree after pedigree with known testing for color and verifying colors of offspring. . . and I would have to believe that red was introgressed from another breed as well. It won't be long and there will be proof of this. Actually, some of it could be proven today with a financial outlay for the research.

<<And they are long legged but not tall. Also have a bull who at 2.5 yrs old is 39i nches at the hip and he is longlegged too>
I want to respond to this quote. It connects to a pet peeve of mine. Bulls mature considerably from the age of three to five. In some cases their appearance changes considerably. ( I DO have picture examples). Their height changes as well, and I think all AI providers should be required to update the size information on bulls at the age of five. I promise you they will grow from the recorded height at 3 years. . . some less so some lots so. . . and I think it is misleading for purchasers of semen that are inexperienced not to have actual sizes on the mature bulls available.

<<<Are there cattle in other countries who don't carry the questionable imported bloods?<<<

The answer is . .. a few. . . but not many. England was the parent country for most modern Dexter exports. Most Americans have no idea the extent of the upgrading that took place in England in the 60's forward. You have to see it on paper, ( reminds me I need to get back to some of my research and compiling of this information) to understand that most herds used other breeds and it was almost all breeds of existing cattle as well. I have some of these records on my website under UK research. I'll try to add more this winter. England has attempted to restore their full blood genetics but they so devastated that pool that they are now using a "percentage" to get back to pure, allowing 97% to be included in their program as I understand it.
Here in the states we have full bloods. They need to be protected, preserved, and the numbers increased. What can that hurt? Why is there such resistance? Why hasn't there been help and guidance and cooperation from the leadership of this breed?
Those are tough questions to answer.

Judy

Judy

Judy

[tiffin]

Judy "preserving and protecting the unique and rare FULL BLOOD Dexters we have in America?"
Where are these Dexters that you have mentioned to preserve? I must be missing something because I thought all this discussion came down to there wasn't any "FULL BLOOD" Dexters. Yikes, I am so confused. And, I'm not trying to be difficult believe me. I have only had Dexters for 3 years so I'm definitely no expert. Help.

Adrienne

[onthebit]

Brindle? Now wouldn't that put in question her lineage? Tiger striping is a colour they are trying to breed in certain brangus herds...This is the first time I have ever heard of brindle being an acceptable trait in Dexter's.

I do realize that the height shouldn't really be measured until maturity. He came here at that height though and has thickened quite a bit and has not changed in height.

The only thing I really care about is keeping them small without the dwarf gene, keeping nice udders on them, horns,and their temperaments! Oh ya, and preserving Canadian Black, Dunn and maybe Red!

One other thing I like is their ability to convert scrub land into beef and milk, A trait I understand is not a quality of the Angus and therefor the low-line.

[marion]

Judy, I have a question about 'legacy' breeding. I just looked up Rafter D Finn Brennach as I had never seen that name. There is a lot of 'accepted by inspection' in his pedigree. How do you reconcile the desire to see 'purity' in the ancestry, with animals only recorded as accepted by inspection? Thanks,marion

[jamshundred]

Adrianna: >>>"preserving and protecting the unique and rare FULL BLOOD Dexters we have in America?" Where are these Dexters that you have mentioned to preserve? I must be missing something because I thought all this discussion came down to there wasn't any "FULL BLOOD" Dexters. Yikes, I am so confused. And, I'm not trying to be difficult believe me.<<

Adrianna, I do not mind "difficult". It challenges me to think and learn. The only time I rise off my chair is when my integrity is questioned or someone uses the old manipulation of " you are harming the breed". Bull poodie! The breed is not widely regarded in the mainstream cattle world. It is not, nor will it ever be a mainstream commercial breed and it has been changed, damaged, and it's historical heritage in peril because of lack of leadership in those who tried to take it from it's unique niche into a place where it really cannot compete and remain true to it's origins.

There were a few breeders in the US that had semi closed or closed herds who did not use animals that had modern importations that came with upgraded genetics, or whose heritage came into question at a later date. ( Parndon Bullfinch). The Colorado herd in Delaware has been a closed herd since the 70's. The last non Colorado animal imported into their herd was the bull Brady's Run Challenger. In the West, you have the Piehota herd, and though it wasn't a closed herd, they kept many of their lines free of the problematic imports and many of the current full bloods one can locate will have the "P-Bar" herd identifier. There are very, very, few animals available ( one here, one there, one yonder) that still carry recorded full blood genetics other than those two herds. Many of them are aging and will soon be lost to the breed. Most of those living are taller cows. The short legs fell victim to the chondro scare and hype. There IS a great little cow in Arizona the owner will sell that I sure wish someone would gather up before it's too late. Just one calf bred to maintain the rarity of the full blood lines will keep them going! And we desperately need some of the small ones! There is another herd in Minnesota we might lose that has cows from a midwest breeder that go back to the Talisman herd and then to Peerless.

When these bloodlines are gone. . . we cannot get them back. Ask those in England who have tried valiantly to restore their English heritage.

Onthebit: <<Brindle? Now wouldn't that put in question her lineage? Tiger striping is a colour they are trying to breed in certain brangus herds...This is the first time I have ever heard of brindle being an acceptable trait in Dexter's.<<<

Ms. Fermoy is not the only animal that throws brindle in the US. Currently there are THREE bulls being used that are either brindled or pass brindling to their calves all of whom come off Lucifer lines and I know of one brindled cow. I think there is at least one breeder trying to breed brindled. Maybe more.

Marion: <<Judy, I have a question about 'legacy' breeding. I just looked up Rafter D Finn Brennach as I had never seen that name. There is a lot of 'accepted by inspection' in his pedigree. How do you reconcile the desire to see 'purity' in the ancestry, with animals only recorded as accepted by inspection?

Marion, they seem to be "re-doing" the pedigree program in ADCA and there are many, many, animals that have that in the pedigree currently. The first one I noticed was the newest import for AI. I believe there was a complaint and they got that pedigree correct. Rafter Dee Finn Bennach is primarily a bull of Peerless breeding and the early bloodlines that predate Peerless once you look behind his parents. Those designations are just a current glitch in the program caused by changes they have been making I presume. For instance, . . they have changed every animal in the pedigree not recorded as red to: "red or dun" instead of the previous dun or red/dun.

Rafter Dee Finn Bennach is primarily a bull of Peerless breeding and the early bloodlines that predate Peerless once you look behind his parents.

There WERE early animals in this breed. . . both American and the parent English herd that were " accepted by inspection". Some of that came about when the breed was first being established and some of it during the war years when the records were not kept.

Judy

[wstevenl]

There is a 13 year old cow for sale where we got our last 3 cows in Tenn. I believe she is a Legacy cow and she just had a dun bull calf in Sept so she's still producing. The bull calf probably has Bullfinch in his pedigree. We could have bought her pretty cheap but she has one quarter that is really swollen from past mastitis and I couldn't get over the look of it. Not to mention we didn't have any more room in the trailer! Her name is Rainbow Hills Cathy and her current owner is listed on the PDCA pedigree. She really looked like the OLD pictures you see of Dexter cows.
One of the other cows we got from him is 12 and is legacy qualified.

Judy, is there a chance that Pardon Bullfinch will be approved at some point or is it just some people's opinion that he is pure?

Once again, I think that saving these rare bloodlines is cool but I do love (most lol) of my other dexters and I still consider them Dexters even if they may be .001% Angus or Jersey or something.

[tiffin]

Thank you, Judy for enlightening me. It certainly would be nice to take on a project of preserving such lines as you speak of but sounds very costly and lengthy. Out of my league that's for sure.